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Thread: HBO Game of Thrones

  1. #1101
    IN UR COMPUTER POSTIN Hollis's Avatar
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    lol is my full response and you can quote me on that. Also...*yawn*
    Last edited by Hollis; 05-23-2019 at 12:53 AM.
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  2. #1102
    A Significant Posisbliity TotalEnd98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    To Subs and TE98 (or anyone else...but not you Skip),

    I apologize that my commentary about the show made you angry and I realize that I wasn't responding to your objections directly. In my defense, in the immediate aftermath of the finale I was buzzed on wine and hadn't really organized my thoughts. But, I also honestly didn't think that the details you guys brought up were all that important to my enjoyment of the show. Which, obviously, is not the same as your enjoyment of the show and all of that is totally cool. We all have different subjective reactions to things. Which again brings us back to me being so dismissive of your complaints and insisting that your issues were no big deal. Your thoughts about it are your thoughts about it and it's not my place to tell you you're wrong.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    So let me say where I think that all of us can absolutely agree. Once the series got past adapting the books, most especially in the truncated seasons seven and eight, the seams really started to show and it moved from a very tightly plotted series where pretty much everything that happened was more than explained by showing and not telling to one where things just kind of seemed to happen and it left the viewer with a lot of heavy lifting to do that was completely unnecessary. I do think that the writers laid more foundation than people are seeming to give them credit for, but it's still true that there's a major difference between a show that does all the lifting for you and you realize in retrospect that there were all kinds of sign posts pointing to whatever happens and one that you have to think about and take like snippets of conversations you remember and kind of piece things together on your own. And a show that does the former is clearly better than a show that does the latter. Throw in Big Crossbow, Euron/Jaime (and the entire handling of Euron altogether), the warp speed travel, and etc. and, yeah, I agree that the show got dumbed down in the non-book late seasons.

    Part of the blame for that absolutely 100% has to be laid at the feet of Benioff and Weiss, and it's certainly not encouraging that they are slated to do a Star Wars trilogy, but a lot of it absolutely has to be put on Martin. On the part of B&W it was their decision, not HBO's, to make the last two seasons a total of 13 episodes and even though almost all of the final season's episodes were movie length that still just didn't leave enough time to not only tie up loose ends but actually address all of the central plot points. So many things were just yadda yaddad. It absolutely should have been three seasons and a total of 30 episodes. That was an unforced error.
    It's not just the late, non-book seasons. The Dorne plotline was one of the good things about the last two books, and because the show didn't know how to handle it and admittedly rushed it into their plans after Oberyn became so popular, the entire story was garbage supported on toothpicks that immediately collapsed. Doran goes from Varys/Littlefinger-level brilliant-but-flawed chessmaster to passive man whose only activity is slowly dying; Ellaria is a cliched angry woman instead of someone who knows Oberyn died doing what he loved: killing Gregor Clegane; Arianne and Quentyn are deleted; Jaime and Bronn are jammed in... if I had been current rather than watching the series in the lead-up to season 7, I would have had a hard time not quitting there.

    And Stannis, legit one of my favorite book characters, gets equally shitty treatment. Martin in the books never fails to remember that, regardless of anything else, Stannis is the legitimate king (non-Targaryen division). The show wanted the viewers to sympathize more with Robb, though (and in season 2, Tyrion and Renly, to a lesser extent), so they elevated Robb to main character and emphasized Stannis's villain side: they made him much more aware of and complicit in what Melisandre was doing, much more of a dick to Davos specifically and everyone generally, much more of a Lord of Light fanatic. And Melisandre suffers for it, too; book!Melisandre's magic is taken as proof she's on the right side, while show!Melisandre constantly falters and is undercut. In the books, she and Stannis curse Robb, Joffrey and Balon, and all three are dead within two hundred pages. That's obvious power. The show splits Robb and Joffrey's deaths across seasons 3 and 4, which would hurt the impact a little on its own, but then Balon lives until season 6, outliving Stannis, and for no good reason.

    I agree that Martin deserves some blame for not having finished a book since the series began airing eight years ago. But like you're saying, that doesn't in any way absolve Benioff and Weiss, and particularly not when the decision to cut the seasons' lengths instead of making extra time implies that they didn't especially care about wrapping up most of what they'd laid out. If they had done three seasons of 10 episodes and they were this quality, I'd be more sympathetic to them, because that would feel more like them trying to find a way to fit it all together, and who can blame them for failing when Martin hasn't done it yet, either? But two seasons and a combined 13 episodes just feels like "nah, we're not going to bother trying."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    it's now very clear that they were way more in to the political intrigue portions of the books (although they didn't exactly do right by Varys or Littlefinger in that respect)
    I agree that they were way more into the political stuff, but fuck, they were awful at writing it. The biggest "intrigue" things in the last three seasons were what? Sansa and Arya vs. Littlefinger, a plot that they broke their own rules and had characters lie to us to try to make work. The Faith Militant, which was working off substantial Martin groundwork, hamstrung by their insistence on involving Loras, and hamstrung by Finn Jones and Natalie Dormer wanting to leave the show anyway. Jon being a secret Targaryen, which also is a Martin thing and which (and this really bothers me) ended up not fucking mattering in any substantial way except as a clumsy way to have them tell us Daenerys was going crazy and a clumsy way to create stupid conflict between Daenerys and Varys and Daenerys and the Starks.

    And by the way, if the Unsullied and Dothraki are leaving Westeros anyway, why send Jon to the now-questionably-necessary Night's Watch? Nobody but Yara really wanted him punished at all, so, like, sentence him to life in prison, release him after they've left, and everyone gets to move on. The Unsullied and the Dothraki aren't going to turn their boats around and come back to this land they hate just to whine, and nobody gives a shit what the Greyjoys ever think anyway. (Daario Naharis might throw a fit, but the show forgot he existed, along with any of Daenerys's holdings in Essos.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    So I can't really get on board with what seems to be the consensus that they suck and are horrible or whatever (not saying that you guys think that! It's just the general consensus!) because this isn't what they signed up for. I don't think they ever thought that they would have to figure out how to tie up all these bows neatly and my presumption is that Martin hasn't finished the book because he hasn't figured it out either.
    That's their fault, though. When the deal was signed, book five was horribly late already and Martin was late middle-aged. They absolutely signed up for a situation where they might have to finish this themselves, either because he didn't write the books or he died, and I don't think "they either didn't understand that or didn't expect either of those to be the case" gets them off the hook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    Where I think we would disagree is basically what sixto said earlier. Once we got past the books and started seeing clunky un-GOT shit in season six I started adjusting my expectations downward and once we saw the time warping in season seven I was like "ok, this is a different show now". That's not to say that either of you guys are wrong and I'm sorry if I implied that I thought you were. It's just that I figured that it had transitioned from a super smart show that had intricate plots that all added up to a show that was going to pay cursory attention to things like everything that happened on a months long journey on a road from city to city to one that yadda yaddad the journey to move from kick ass set piece to kick ass set piece.
    I'm glad you, and anybody else who did that, did so, because it let you enjoy the show the way I wish I could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    I mean it never got to like network TV level stupid right? It just wasn't on the level of the earlier seasons.
    I definitely think there are network TV shows that are less stupid than the late seasons of GoT. "Fine, but not on the level of the earlier seasons" describes some of it; most of the King's Landing stuff and the Arya stuff in Season 6 would probably fall into this category. But even ignoring Season 8, I'd classify Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger, the offscreen-and-contradicting-their-own-shit Battle of Highgarden and the magical teleporting dragon from 7 as plots as stupid as I'd expect from any CBS comedy or whatever.
    OH GOD I FORGOT ABOUT CONSERVATION OF MASS OH GOD

  3. #1103
    Smirking Jewishly Dwolfson20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalEnd98 View Post
    a plot that they broke their own rules and had characters lie to us to try to make work
    Can you go into this rule further? I must not have picked up on this device, and I admittedly have not read/watched all of D&D's public statements.

    It does kind of invert the usual arrangement of allowing the audience to have more information than the characters.
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  4. #1104
    A Significant Posisbliity TotalEnd98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwolfson20 View Post
    Can you go into this rule further? I must not have picked up on this device, and I admittedly have not read/watched all of D&D's public statements.

    It does kind of invert the usual arrangement of allowing the audience to have more information than the characters.
    Before the fake Sansa vs. Arya stuff, the show had been very, very good about not having characters specifically trying to fool the audience (I can't think of another instance of it, certainly none this major). Any time a character lied on screen, they were lying to another character, not to the audience. But they wanted this plot to have the big surprise twist at the end, and the only way they could figure out to do it was to show us Sansa and Arya fighting and hide from us, until the trial, the important part that at some point, they caught on, and for the rest of it they were just pretending in case Littlefinger was watching them. That makes it feel unearned; if what the characters say and do don't matter because the actual buildup is happening offscreen, then they can say and do anything and the plot can have any twist conclusion you like, because they don't have to be related.

    Contrast it with something like the Red Wedding. There was no series of scenes in Season 3 where they showed us that, say, Roose Bolton was meeting with Walder Frey in private and convincing him to forgive Robb, and Walder finally agrees, and then the wedding happens and wow! Roose is actually a traitor working with Walder and those scenes only existed to fool us. In what actually airs, yeah, Walder lies and Roose lies, but they're always lying to Robb or to other characters, and the twist works just fine with that limitation.
    OH GOD I FORGOT ABOUT CONSERVATION OF MASS OH GOD

  5. #1105
    IN UR COMPUTER POSTIN Hollis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I didn't like that Sansa/Arya stuff for just that reason.
    Reviewing Football Manager is like reviewing Buddhism. Yes, you can do it, but you have to take your time.

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