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Thread: Theory for fictional/historical (boring; don't read)

  1. #1
    Some Freakish Man-Shark
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    Theory for fictional/historical (boring; don't read)

    This is only going to be of interest to a couple of you. It's not hard-historical, and it's more about league creating than anything else. Fair warning.

    I've been thinking about how you'd go about setting up a promotion/relegation league if you wanted to do it realistically. Ideally, you'd want a situation where you had a whole bunch of clubs/levels by the mid-20th century, but how to get there without just arbitrarily putting teams in levels? Relatedly, shouldn't such a league mirror the population spread of the actual U.S. - i.e., lots of teams in New York from all different levels, etc.

    I have an idea for doing this that I may try to turn into a fictional-historical league. So, first off you start in 1866 - the Civil War is over, and teams can start playing all over the country. I use this list of cities from the 1870 census as my jumping off point. The first team is, of course, from New York - the largest city. From there, I figure that New York gets a second team as soon as its population/2 is greater than any other city's raw population. In fact, that's going to be the guiding principle:

    CITY POPULATION/(NUMBER OF TEAMS ALREADY IN THE CITY+1)

    Whichever has the highest total gets the next club.

    So after New York, the next club goes to Philadelphia, with about 2/3 the population of New York in 1870. The third club is New York again, as half of New York's population is still greater than the third-biggest city (which is actually Brooklyn). Here's the entire top ten, since I'm figuring I'll want to start with ten clubs:

    New York 1
    Philadelphia 1
    New York 2
    Brooklyn
    Philadelphia 2
    St. Louis
    New York 3
    Chicago
    Baltimore
    Boston

    In 1866, it would be realistic to have these clubs play a 36-game schedule - each other club four times. Then for the next year, the next guiding principle enters play - two new clubs are added every year, using the same principle as above. Furthermore, leagues are never allowed to get more than ten clubs, so it splits whenever appropriate. So the 1867 season would have teams 1-6 from 1866 in the top league, and teams 7-10 in the bottom league together with the two new clubs - New York 4 and Philadelphia 3. This would continue on into the future:

    1867: New York 4, Philadelphia 3
    1868: Cincinnati, Brooklyn 2
    1869: New York 5, Philadelphia 4
    1870: New York 6, St. Louis 2

    By 1870, there'd be 18 teams - 10 in one league and 8 in the other. When I gamed this forward several decades, it seemed to add clubs the way you'd want to, and theoretically you could have a realistic promotion/relegation league if the engine can handle it. If you structured your ultimate leagues this way:

    10 in top league
    10 in second league
    10 in third league
    20 in two geographically aligned fourth tier leagues
    30 in three geographically aligned fifth tier leagues
    60 in six geographically aligned sixth tier leagues
    120 in 12 geographically aligned seventh tier leagues

    ...that would take you to the late 20th century, and with roughly the same number of (major and minor league) clubs that exist now. I guess the next step would be seeing if the engine can handle it.
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  2. #2

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    First I like the discussion topic. My thoughts for what they're worth.

    If you're going to do a promo/reg league in America, I'd look at how British football was during the 1880s to about 1910. Was there that many levels? I ask as even thought America was baseball mad during the meat of your time frame, could the professional ranks support a seven tier league with that many cities? I'm thinking by the time you got to tier six you'd have places that were barely stopovers for the regional wagon trains (that's not the right term, but I can't recall what they were called that ran east of the mississippi before the trains came.

    Regarding team location, some teams would be a bit far to be going too, depending on the time you start and what not. St. Louis immediately leaps out as a location that while they had the population, the travel time would be expensive if not prohibitive depending on how early you started (aka 1860's no-one wants to stay on a train for four days to get there, 1900s? different story as the travel is now half). same with places like Memphis, Atlanta, and others.

    Now that being said, if your'e not obsessed with historical accuracy to that degree like myself, then it's not an issue. I'd say the engine could handle it. I've done a 100 team league with a 180 game scheduele and the engine was ok 250 years into it.

    EDIT: This map may be of interest.
    Last edited by creed; 08-10-2017 at 07:35 PM.
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  3. #3
    Surprisingly adequate! Mel Ott's Avatar
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    Seems like a really cool idea! I hope the game can handle that many clubs, though.
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    Johnny Slick's Avatar
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    You can do a full Divison I college football setup so I see no reason why it can't run with this. The biggest issue I see is there being too much mid level talent, well, that and the fact that the game doesn't handle reserve rosters particularly well. You can get around some of that by having all the "levels" represented for the purposes of player creation and drafts, and allowing higher level teams to syndicate with lower level ones, but if you want teams to go after the right "level" of free agents I think you're going to have to do a lot of messing with league and team finances every year.

    (I also like larger leagues, like 12 to 24. Too small and there's sometimes no distance between a promotion playoff and relegation. YMMV)
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  5. #5
    Some Freakish Man-Shark
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    Two things I noticed when starting up yesterday:

    - It's surprisingly easy to get started with a league now, especially if you're willing to live with the fictional logos/uniforms. Or maybe I've done it enough times to be able to navigate all those menus easily.
    - I am fucking terrible at anything artistic, but jaffe's incredible utilities make it so even I can make passable uniforms.
    - We DESPERATELY need one place for all the good mods. Questdog has a great names mod (ping: Malleus!) for the 19th century, but it was just... gone. Fortunately, Snowman found me on Twitter and emailed me his copy.

    I guess that's three things.
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    DJ L'mazing attackemu's Avatar
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    I've started lots of historical/fictional leagues with a bunch of smaller regional leagues that eventually coalesce into the majors. Your idea is like the uber version of that, and I like it a lot, and your way of picking cities is better than any I've ever come up with. Looking forward to following how it goes. (And playing it as a quickstart if it works?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck View Post
    - We DESPERATELY need one place for all the good mods. Questdog has a great names mod (ping: Malleus!) for the 19th century, but it was just... gone. Fortunately, Snowman found me on Twitter and emailed me his copy.
    There used to (or still is?), ootpmods.com, although the guy that originally ran it bailed out, and I think the web admin for the Canadian Baseball league is running it? Only thing I've heard of for possible sources
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    Police Squad! Hammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by attackemu View Post
    I've started lots of historical/fictional leagues with a bunch of smaller regional leagues that eventually coalesce into the majors. Your idea is like the uber version of that, and I like it a lot, and your way of picking cities is better than any I've ever come up with. Looking forward to following how it goes. (And playing it as a quickstart if it works?)
    Same here, only mine usually implodes when I simply can't move forward without getting suitable nicknames and logos, at which point it becomes overwhelming and I give up completely.
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  9. #9
    Some Freakish Man-Shark
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    The thing I like about this is that I only have to come up with two new nicknames/logos per year. I figure I can just cannibalize what's already out there for a long time, and if I'm still running this thing at that point I can hit people up for new vintage names/logos.

    My starting ten clubs:

    Baltimore Terrapins
    Boston Bees
    Brooklyn Atlantics
    Chicago Unions
    New York Gothams
    New York Knights
    New York Mutuals
    Philadelphia Green Sox
    Philadelphia Olympians
    St. Louis Terriers

    For 1867 the new clubs, which will be added into whatever I call the second-tier league, will be the New York Highlanders and the Philadelphia Quakers.

    I found usable circle logos for all of them except the Unions, who are currently using a pathetic "C" in a circle. (Hint hint, logo badasses!)
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    Not to speak is to speak.
    Not to act is to act.

  10. #10
    Johnny Slick's Avatar
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    Yeah, I do have to say that I second emu's remarks. I personally have used census data to set market sizes and this way sounds pretty awesome in its own right. I assume you just want to "set and forget" those, allowing teams to see them go up or down depending on finish? I'm not... sure the game will handle that well but I'm interested to see what it does. Also, you'll probably wind up having one entire regional NYC league but that strikes me as MASSIVELY cool... maybe you could have some of the smaller teams be built around specific enclaves like some of the London teams in the Association (West Ham, for instance, were originally called Thames Ironworks FC and its original membership at least putatively worked for the company of the same name... see also: Brentford (created as a summer pastime for the Brentford Rowing Club), your own beloved Millwall (founded by cannery workers on the Isle of Dogs), Leyton Orient (from the Glyn Cricket Club), and several teams who were formed from primary school teammates).

    This reminds me that I should give my League of Nations thing another shot... every time I try to build I decide that there have to be rules of a certain variety and it always winds up being too much work and I stop. But maybe if, like you, I start *super* early, with a relatively small number of teams, I can just expand outward...
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